The Future Of Phoenicia School
Phoenicia Elementary School
An online poll has been created to gauge area opinion about the future of our elementary school education. It is important to maintain educational quality while preserving our tax base- a delicate balance. If Onteora District School Board closes the Phoenicia School, we will see a deterioration in the tax base of the Town of Shandaken and ultimately, in the district as a whole. If Phoenicia remains open, the District can accommodate growth and maintain smaller (22 kids per class as opposed to 27) class sizes in the important K-3 grades. The Elementary Schools will also have the resources to implement a more progressive educational plan involving parents as co-educators. By investing in quality education for our youngest children, our District will serve as a magnet for families looking to move to the area. Please vote and let us know where you stand! Local resident Nick Alba writes: “We’ve been hearing threats about closing the Phoenicia School for so many years that many of us are not taking this seriously. However, at this point, the possibility is very real and a decision by the School Board may be imminent. If we want to keep the Phoenicia School open, actually improve the quality of education for our children and save tax dollars, we must tell the School Board that we support the “bookends plan”. This is the only plan on the table that will allow the Phoenicia School to remain open. Our School Board will be meeting at the Phoenicia School next Tues, Jan 24th, an 6:45PM”
Click here to vote: ON LINE POLL
My children have been out of Phoenicia for well over ten years. This discussion has been going on since the 80′s and I have taken it seriously everytime. I do not know if the people of the eastern end of the district realize the distance that some of the children in this districe have to travel. Our district runs all the way up to HIghmount(Bellayre Mt). The thought of putting a 5 or 6 year old child on a bus to Bennett or Woodstock is crazy. That would mean those tiny children would be on a bus for over an hour in just one direction. Can you imagine that? Their safety is very important to me.
I am well aware of our fiscal woes but you must agree there is some very frivolous money that is spent in this district. Such as that digital sign in front of the High School. Who deicided we needed that? I do not recall ever hearing my opinion on that waste of money no do any of my friends. What must the cost of that expenditure have been? I honestly believe if we need to restructure the third option would be the best option for all involved. We love our school as much as the other schools but Phoenicia is a whole different environment from the other schools. We are very rural and the school is so much more than just a place of learning. It is the hub of this community because we are so rural. Even though I no longer have children in Phoenicia this issue is still important to me. Don’t close Phoenicia!
A bus ride over an hour long when I complained about my son going from woodstock elem zone to bennett zone- being the first on in the morning and last off in the afternoon wasn’t taken as a seriouse complaint then. I don’t see why it should now. He was 5 and I got him some music to listen too. – It sucked but was worth the special edu. program at Bennett. I don’t see how thats relevent. I think its a great Idea to have 2 K-6, one at woodstock and one at Bennett. I don’t like the idea of a booken plan that keeps 3 schools open and doesn’t save money. I would rather have slightly packed schools with QUALITY programming- combined PTA funds, combined afterschool classes and clubs. Lets bring in Chess and lego club- heck I would rather have a class with 30 kids and 1 Quality elementary school. This district has shrunk and to afford the buildings you’ve given up all the unique programs that used to make this district desirable. This is a mom of a special needs kid speaking- who’s son does not do well in large classes. But even the Special edu programming would improve with less buildings. We could see full-day integrated classes where in each grade a CT in in a class side by side for 5 1/2 hrs VS 2 hrs. Therapists would only need to commute back and forth between 2 buildings giving them more time with students and student more time in therapy. Reading teachers that are overwhelmed will have access to shared resources. The bus run could stay K-6 and this plan would require the least amount of change for individual students.
With the terrible book end idea student have more transitions. Those in bennett now in 2nd grade would be dispersed between woodstock and phoenecia and then after only a year brought back to bennett for 4th… how is that healthy? How would it be healthy in this bookend idea to put 4 and 5 year old Kinder’s on the bus with 17 and 18 year olds?
As for this show the phoenecia- heavy board is putting on…. no one is buying it. We see through this. your writting in the paper making comments that make the bookend plan seem better while leaving out the positives of the other 2 plans. Your not lying- your selectively leaving out information to your benefit. Silly disgusting politics. Its bad enough dealing with IEP and CSE politics. I’m actually done with this district next year- so I don’t have a steak in “he said -she said/ I’m right your wrong” politics and from my view as a parent who’s kids don’t need to worry about the outcome of this anymore- I think the bookend plan is rediculouse. You leave out how much money the building needs in repairs which has been stated to be quite a lot, teachers salaries for an extreemly small amount of students.
An hour bus ride- get your kindergartener an MP3 player and load it up with some good music like we did. Older kids can do there homework on the bus like I used to when I went to new paltz school district when I was little and my bus ride was over an hour.- and to think some parents inthe city recently were upset with their kids three hour bus rides though traffic and your complaining about an hour….
Ahhh I don’t know why this gets me so wralled up. I think because the agenda is sided with the bookend plan and I feel like no matter how many vote the pole gets (if the pole doesn’t have someone from phoenecia rigging it and voting over and over) and no matter how many meetings they hold where the majority want the 2 K-6 plan and no matter how many petition signitures for how many want the 2 K-6 plan the board is going to vote how they want because they want whats best for their school not the district as a whole. Its dirty. Its sided. Its completely odd. Michigan schools closed and consolidates, kids where we were living 3 years ago were driving 2 and 3 hour bus rides because they lived out on farms and the nearest school was really that far.
I guess I’m upset because when I came to this district I remembered it being #1 . I wanted my kids to go here now I’m prob going to be moving out because its not worth the high rent and high housing prices on the market. Your choosing building over programs, services, clubs and enrichment, gifted and talented, greater special edu inclusion classes, more reaching teachers for AIS, bring in the YMCA for afterschool latchkey- because there is a shortage of aftercare providers, bring in more arts etc. Its the stuff inside the building that your offering to the minds of these kids- not the buldings that matter.
Make me want to move back here after my hubby graduate college. Make this district worth its high rent so the people paying taxes dont have to choose private school and homeschooling (which this district has an extreemly high number of students doing). Okay enough said. I’m so glad I can type pretty darn fast – sorry this comment is not spell checked I have to get my kids in bed.
There is misinformation contained in the above post: class sizes in any of the three options being considered would be nearly identical at around 22 max. (according to the most recent board meeting on January 10). Also, sending a 5-year-old from Highmount to Bennett would be equivalent to sending one from Samsonville to Phoenicia or Woodstock, as would be necessary if Phoenicia school is kept open. The transportation department worked out the routes — maximum bus times for any child in ANY of the three options would be about 47 minutes. I know this is a very hard decision, but It’s not appropriate to scare parents or others into voting a certain way by spreading unsubstantiated rumors.
Sorry I was rushing and have not been been to the meeting. I ahve read all Minuets and everything sent out Via e-mail. I was saying I would take class sizes of 30 kids- not that there would be class sizes that large. I am not trying to scare anyone – don’t make me sound villinouse- I’m just a mom sharring my opiniong. I didn’t claim to know the details of the bus routes either- I was stating what I have experienced and where I’m coming from. It sounds like your on the attack- not me. I didn’t say a darn thing that was intended to scare anybody. =/
Melissa– seems to have been a mix-up. Our posts were put up around the same time, so I was not responding to yours, but the original post and the first response. I never saw yours before posting mine. Sorry for the mix-up…I actually agree with you and think 2 K-6 is the way to go. I just want to clear up misinformation whenever I see it, since there is a LOT of it out there.
Cool I was thinking after I re-posted that may have happened. I went on Onteora’s site to get some more facts to back my opinion and noticed Phonecia costs a whole lot to run per year for a very small amount of classroom space and student capacity. Then take the cost of Bus moniters and look at the cost of the school to run per year. Also with the book end plan we’re laying off a whole lot of teachers. I value teachers and would take them and slightly larger class sizes over a building ( and I really don’t have an allegiance to any side of Onteora- we are zoned woodstock- varianced to bennett and we’re prob not staying here another year.
It REALLY looks like- if you look at the financial numbers the greatest gain financially with the least amount of stress on students will come from the 2 K-6 plan. here is a link to the exact page with the numbers:
http://www.onteora.k12.ny.us/4370101216141227800/blank/browse.asp?A=383&BMDRN=2000&BCOB=0&C=54141
also here is from the link – take a close look at the cost of bus monitors then the oporational cost of the schools…why is this bussing thing even being considered. 2 k-6 schools could keep the seperate bus run and not give us this added expence! :
Facilities and Staffing
What are the staffing, operations, maintenance of each building?
Approximately:
Bennett
Phoenicia West Hurley
Woodstock
Operations Total
$191,266
$136,727
$56,418
$171,102
Maintenance Total
$86,723
$85,655
$10,707
$85,655
Salary Totals
$235,283
$200,835
$232,646
Top
What is the current cost of running each building?
Bennett
Phoenicia
West Hurley
Woodstock
$513,272
$423,217
$67,125
$489,403
How many students would be in each building?
Two K – 6 Buildings (approx 352 per bldg)
Two K – 3 Buildings (approx 195 per bldg) One 4 – 6 Building (approx 316)
One K – 3 Building (approx 390) One 4 – 6 Building (approx 316)
What is the physical capacity of each building?
Bennett
Woodstock
Phoenicia
West Hurley
Ryan
Levins
Square Footage
47,439
43,800
29,900
11,300
32,260
Number of Classrooms
23
19
17*
6
13
Specials /Offices
11
6
4
* With 2 Modular Classrooms that need roof improvements (-1,600 sq. feet)
How many positions (which ones) are being eliminated?
MODEL #1 (Two K-6)
MODEL #2 (One K-2, One 4-6)
MODEL #3 (Two K-3, One 4-6)
Title
# of Positions
Title
# of Positions
Title
# of Positions
Elementary Teachers
4
Elementary Teachers
7
Elementary Teachers
7
Music Teacher
1
Music Teachers
2.5
Music Teachers
1.5
Librarian
1
Librarians
2
Librarians
2
Reading Teacher
2
Reading Teacher
1
Reading Teacher
1
Typists
2
Typists
2
Typists
2
Custodian
1.0
Custodian
1.0
Special Ed. Teachers
3
Custodial Workers
1.5
Custodial Workers
1.5
Social Worker/
Psychologist
1
Administrator
1
Administrator
1
Speech Therapist
1
Nurse
1
Nurse
1
Teaching Asst.
9
School Lunch Staff
TBD
School Lunch Staff
TBD
COTA
1
Special Ed. Teachers
3
Special Ed. Teachers
3
Elementary Teachers
7
Social Worker/
Psychologist
1
Social Worker/
Psychologist
1
Speech Therapist
1
Speech Therapist
1
Teaching Asst.
10
Teaching Asst.
10
Top
#Fin
Financial
How much money will this plan save?
Model 1 (Two K-6): $2,077,319
Model 2(One K-2, One 4-6): $2,444,769
Model 3 (Two K-3, One 4-6): $1,988,290
What other cuts are being made or considered?Their savings?
Program Secretary 1 $85,088
Account Clerk/Typist 1 $25,000Transportation Position 1 $58,148
Total: $168,236
Top
#Tra
Transportation
How many students currently live within each elementary boundary – without variances/MAPS? (their ‘home’ school)
Phoenicia 182
Bennett 230
Woodstock 291
How would new boundaries be determined? (for elementary)
By where they live
Hard cost of one district run
Hard Bus Run per year = $31,000: 34 Elementary bus runs 27 HS/MS bus runs
Are you thinking about monitors on the bus and will that add to transportation costs?
Monitors on all the buses will cost $400,000 – $500,000
How would transportation be decided – length of stay on the bus?
In the preliminary bus runs – no run is more than 47 minutes. This is subject to change once a plan is chosen.
Bus route – what is the savings?
No savings, no additional cost
There is no plan to put monitors on the buses — only “as needed” because of the high cost. This would mean that in either grade clustering plan, 4th graders will ride with 18-year-olds basically unsupervised every day. It’s not just children’s physical safety that concerns me, but also the loss of innocence — unfortunately, many high schoolers talk like truckers and often discuss adult topics that are completely inappropriate for the young ones. This is the deal-breaker for me with the Princeton plans — unacceptable.
I have been to a few meetings now. The board and staff put a lot the research in to the various scenarios for our schools.
If people want to arm chair rhapsodize about what should happen. Or the ever popular “when I went to school.. etc etc.”
People, things are very different in this past few years. There are less people here, IBM left. Fed County state budgets are slashed
So read up first and attend a few meetings.
But please read the material on the school website, Buried under the BOE menus… its a pdf download, but its very well presented and easy to comprehend.
And yes their are projected Bus Times on there for every area.
The board seem very thorough however I understand they were voted in on a wave of saving the Phonicia school from a few years ago. So their directive can be seen as such.
The new Supervisor was hired by the Phonecia leaning board on a $160k a year salary for 3.5 years [the contract is on the BOE website]
The supervisor is very clear about her preference for bookends…i.e. keeping Phonecia open [even half empty]
I don’t mean to be contentious by mentioning this. Just to get us all clear.
Having said that, In the last Jan 10th revised plan on the website:
The 2 K-6 plan is the only plan that, in its summary [pg 19] says:
“Saves money, But does not contribute to enhancing the educational program”
However we are informed that 2 K-3s “Bookend princeton” plan “enhances education”
Well for one Its Only 187 children in each facility that holds almost twice as many!…[non school using taxpayers are you following this]
No one loses a school, and the existing 2 K-3 schools would be seemingly empty, [but fully heated of course.]
However the Princton/Bookend plan gets rid of MORE teachers [7] than 2 K-6 schools [4]..
That will enhance education?
The K to 6 grade sizes of either plan [2 K-3s ,or, 2 K-6s] would be the same, its in the document
Now hears the bonus:
Bennet 4-6 would again be very full. almost as full as a dual K-6 plan.
Im sorry but I dont see how keeping a Building open at almost half capacity is a very good plan. On any chart.
Our 4-6 grades won’t see much benefit space-wise for the bookend thing
The test scores are not great at Onterora
Trying to save a building wont change that.
We have 3 staffed elementary schools and have not seen great scores.
Looking at the scores of the district, I dont see this plan as making the children any closer to educational goals.
Less teachers? and paying for a full staffed building for no educational benefits.
We talk about the district as a whole and that were all united,… but when it comes to hard decisions its all about one Building
Phoenicia school needs substantial repair,..250,000$ worth.new boiler, I heard. This is not brought up in the plan.
Speaking of which:
I also did some homework on the Hurley school integration of a few years ago, combining Woodstock and Hurley.
Moving, and splitting up the children across the 2, then finding Hurley needed health safety related repairs. squeezing everyone to one of the 2 Hurley buildings…dumping money into it then… [wait for it] closing it.
Am I missing something, do we see a pattern.
What did we learn from this Hurlely debacle? Ive talked to parents and it wasn’t good.
Did Bennet or Phonicia have to reshuffle to accommodate this Hurley Woodstock combining…I heard not.
correct me if I’m wrong
West Hurley is not still hurting and the town is not a distaster.
Again it was putting a physical building before facts, and common sense.
Hard decisions are just that, no more no less.
I’m from generations of teachers. I believe that you can educate with a will and a blackboard.
This saving a building idea will not improve our education. and only sink Onteora the district further away from real issues that are here, now.
Let me get this straight. It’s NOT ok for the parents at Bennett to express their opinions with a petition (with addresses able to be validated and real names) but it IS ok for Phoencia to have an online poll?? Really??
The plan of having K-3 in both Phoenicia and Woodstock is a temporary plan, enrollment is declining and we cannot support half full schools. OCS closed West Hurley quickly and for fewer reasons. Here’s hoping the BOE and the Superintendent see facts and numbers before emotions.
By the way, has anyone asked why the superintendent feels the bookends are the best plan? What educational studies has she shown you? Have you asked her why band and orchestra and rosetta stone are being moved to after school? Why isn’t the plan to incorporate more foreign language in the younger grades when kids have so much ability to learn? What about science? Is there plan to have lab like bennett has now? More science activities? a place for hands on work and experimentation? Have you asked her about what programs she will add to the curriculum (not to the afterschool offerings)? Lets see some research and some factual proof that these ‘early literacy centers’ are efficient and effective. While you’re at it… investigate the ‘wonderful’ teacher’s college reading and writing program. They may say it’s wonderful, but are basic skills being taught? C’mon Dr McGill and the BOE, show us some serious fact based analyis.
Amen Mary!! I just love the double standards here. The petition that the Bennett PTA was sending around was well written and not biased towards Bennett or any other school. What was said in it was that we need to think about the whole district and not just one school. The BOE is supposed to be there for all the kids in the district. They have definately lost sight of this and are thinking with their hearts and not their brains. Lets get real..the district enrollment is declining, Partially empty buildings equal more fuel costs. I definately forsee there being a central campus like there was when I was in school. Is the BOE looking at what other districts are doing? Have they seen whats happening across the river? Whole schools are being closed and districts are being realigned. Its sad but its a fact of life right now. Let’s get back to really caring about ALL of the students in this district, not just one school. Programs are started in this district,used for a year then squashed even if they are working. Too much inconsistancy!! The district is talking about laying off more people in the special education area and yet there are more and more kids with needs. It just doesn’t add up.
PS.. The pole is totally inaccurate..anyone with computer savvy knows that you can go to different servers and vote more than once. A petition is real time signatures.
My grandfather was principal of Woodstock Elementary school when the decision was made to build Onteora. He was dead against it and thought it made no sense to build a large highschool and compress little, rural schools into one white elephant in the ‘sticks’. I, personally agree with his foresight. Why has the administration not considered closing Onteora and re-opening West Hurley School to have two high schools at Bennett and West Hurley? We’re paying to keep West Hurley school, so why not off the energy inefficient, painfully-ungreen Onteora building and split the district? Everyone will be closer to their respective Elementary or high school. The West Hurley community would, I’m sure, be thrilled at the prospect of their school re-opening. Does anyone have a vested interest inked ping Onteora alive? Think about the savings in gas and transportation alone!